defiance girl

[flea]

We're having trouble with Casper at school. Last week she got in trouble in her classroom when Mrs. B was at a meeting and there was a sub. She wouldn't listen and ended up having to sit in a chair, their version of "time out." mr. flea had a talk with Mrs. B the next day (Friday) and learned that Casper had also been physical with some classmates. mr. flea was pretty concerned about this and had a serious talk with Casper in the hallway about not headbutting people.

I went to Open School night Monday in part to touch base with Mrs. B about this issue, although since Casper was there I felt I couldn't speak too openly about it. But Mrs. B said that Casper had had good days Friday and Monday.

Today Mrs. S the music teacher called mr. flea to say that Casper wouldn't tidy up the materials with the rest of her classmates at the end of class. Instead she way lying on the floor and rolling around. Mrs. S said she spoke privately to Casper about this both yesterday and today. (Obviously it didn't take yesterday!)

Casper also basically ate no lunch Monday or Tuesday, unless she bought lunch from the cafeteria which she is not supposed to do. Unfortunately there is no way to prevent her buying lunch; the system is set up so that anyone can choose to go through the lunch line, and if they have no money on the account the parents are billed. I think it's not appropriate to let 4 year olds choose to buy lunch, which is usually things considered 'treats' in our family, like pizza, chicken nuggets, etc. But I did not design the system and have no control over it. The whole reason we send her lunch is because I think the cafeteria lunches are not healthy. Monday night I had Casper help me make her lunch, hoping that by allowing her to choose what was in it and make it herself she would then eat it. Didn't work.

Mrs. S. implied to mr. flea that we are too lax in our parenting; she seems like kind of a law and order type. When Casper doesn't want to do something at home, we try to negotiate a compromise. If we are unable to - if it's something where there is no compromise position - Casper has a tendency to throw a fit. We put her in her room to calm down (stop screaming) when this happens. I don't think we're being ridiculously lax, although god knows we aren't disciplinarians.

Anyone have thoughts on how to handle the issue of disobedience at school? Casper is 4 and a quarter; she's among the youngest in her class, but Mrs. S at least doesn't think it's an immaturity issue - more a testing of boundaries. I plan to have a chat with Mrs. B by phone tonight if possible, so see if she has any suggestions on how we can reinforce listening and cooperating at school.

Are we raising this kind wrong? Is she too wild? Is it our fault, or is this who she is?

Comments

[ste-noni.livejournal.com]

When I was in 3rd grade, I had problems similar to Casper's. Of course, she is much younger than third grade, but my mother's solution was to give me a little card with each day of the week on it. At the end of each day, the teacher would give me a sticker on the card if I'd behaved that day. If I didn't get the sticker, there were consequences at home (nothing dire, but maybe I couldn't play with my friends that evening or watch TV or something like that). Like Casper, I was mostly interested in testing boundaries and (I have no idea if Casper is like this) I had a really hard time when things were different (i.e substitute teacher) and not the routine.

As for being too lax or whatever, I really can't say. In our house (and of course, Ellie is 2.5) we don't negotiate. I try very hard to choose the areas I think are important (safety, respect, etc.) and I make the rules in those areas. If she doesn't follow them, I try distraction, or telling her we will do that later (and then actually do it later) and then we do time out with the very occasional spanking (*very* occasional because I don't think it's very effective.)

I do probably 85% of the supervising/disciplining in our house because Joe works long hours.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

With negotiating I'm thinking of, "It's time to get dressed." "Not now, I'm playing!" "Okay, in two minutes it will be time to get dressed." Two minutes pass. "Two minutes are up! Time to get dressed!" "Not now, I'm playing!" "Nope, it's time. You had two minutes." Then there's a lot of coaxing and hustling. Same with rules like "put your shoes by the door not all over the place" and "eat your whole dinner" (we tend to get some of it eaten and then do a 'three more bites' compromise.)

No negotiation rules are things like no hitting your brother. Right now her big one is she is allowed to play with the Christmas angels and Playmobil but only on the high shelf. She is DYING to take over the dining room table and make a big play. I say no, because we need to eat meals, and also, we need to keep the tiny pieces away from Dillo. We fought about this Sunday (with screaming and time out); we argued about it this morning. There are no toys on the table, but damn is she persistent.

[ste-noni.livejournal.com]

I actually was in the proces of editting my post when you responded. Here's what I wrote:

eta: The "why" got erased the first time... I have definitely approached parenting ELlie as "what would work on me" and I know that I was a headstrong/defiant/strong-willed child who really excelled when the boundaries/rules were clear. So, for me, I know I would not be happy if I could always negotiate with my parents. I can't say if I'm imposing myself on Ellie or if she is just that way too, but so far, it seems to work well with her.

Oh, and one more bit about negotiation from my perspective. I don't think "we can't watch Nemo now, but we can after dinner" is negotiation. To me, it's not because I, as the parent, am getting what I need out of the situation - namely, we aren't watching Nemo now for whatever reason. Perhaps it lets her feel like she's winning something if I let her watch after dinner, but the point is that we are following my rules - no Nemo during dinner. So maybe I'm not as anti-negotiation as I thought, but, as I said above, I try to impose the least restrictive rulepossible, but I try to be ironclad about following them.

In response to what you just wrote, you already have at least 2 years of parenting experience on me, so I don't know what this is worth, but I would suggest starting with "time to stop playing in 2 minutes" and then giving her the extra time. Or starting with "you must eat what is on your plate" but only putting what you think she really should eat on there. I feel a bit preachy about this and I'm sorry if it comes off that way, but I think that it's better for kids to know the boundaries going into the situation instead of changing the boundaries as you go.

RIght now, Joe has a habit of telling Ellie "finish what's on your plate" before she leaves the table. I think this is unnecessary because she eats very well and we frequently give her a lot of food or she's on her second helping. But when he says that to her, I tell him he has to follow through now - either she eats it or they do a time out or no dessert or something because otherwise his words are empty and she knows she doesn't have to listen to him next time.

[haphazardmethod.livejournal.com]

I found the book Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child helpful for thinking about life with Sys. She is something of a scientist, figuring out where the boundaries are by running full-tilt into them. The book helped me recognize this was a learning style and not an exercise in making her mother nuts, which calmed me down. Like any parenting book, I pick and choose what interests me.

It might help at home but I don't know what to do about school because it isn't your interactions with her that are at issue. Sys' teacher uses a time out chair for the kids combined with a calm, firm manner. At first, Sys spent awhile on the chair in any given episode; now she doesn't need to sit long before she can calmly apologize and move on. We probably aren't as calm and consistent with her as we should be.

[serrana.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, this sort of thing is part of why we're keeping Herself at home as much as we are. We had a lot of trouble in school last year! I got expelled from school in the second grade for very similar behavioral stuff, and I'm so not keen on doing that again....

That said, I have come to think that it's up to the folks who're supervising my kids in my absence to make the rules and stick to them. The sitter and I have different rules, but I've tried to make it clear that when they're at Ann's house, I expect them to follow her rules, and when they're at home, they have to follow our rules. (And usually she's more cooperative with Ann!) Same thing when she's at my parents' house.

There's only so much responsibility one can take for what one's kid does in one's absence. And really, even if you were sitting right there all through the school day, it's not like the behavior would be any better -- probably the opposite, if she's anything like my daughter (and they sound very, very similar!)

I completely concur on the lunch business. I don't know what they're thinking with that. *frowns*

[mearagrrl.livejournal.com]

That does seem odd on the lunch business--one thing to allow it if the kid forgets/doesn't get lunch, but you'd think they'd have to like, get an OK from someone.

Otherwise, I got nothing but "good luck", not having any parenting experience of my own.

[forodwaith.livejournal.com]

Sounds normal to me, i.e., we've had similar conversations with Nora's daycare teachers (though fortunately they didn't imply it was because we were lax parents). Nora understands why she gets in trouble -- she'll cheerfully tell me "Michelle put me in time-out today because I hit Rachel!" -- but hasn't gotten to the stage of stopping herself first. I would think that's pretty much standard for 3 & 4 year olds?

In any case, I hope talking with Mrs B helps. And add one more vote for that lunch setup being ill-thought-out.