the culture wars...

[flea]

In addition to their ongoing anti-feminist articles about young women wanting to stay home with children, the New York Times also has had repeated articles about clashes between people with children and people without children. Today's instalment is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html?8hpib

My response is well-covered by Bitch, PhD in this essay (http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2005/04/moms-at-work-over-there.html) and can be summed up this way: children are part of society. Yes, parents should encourage them to be well-behaved in public, and should not take one-year-olds to Michelin 3-star restaurants. But a casual neighborhood cafe at brunch time or early evening? Give me a break.

Comments

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

I LOVE the response!!!! AMEN!

[dxmachina.livejournal.com]

Yes, parents should encourage them to be well-behaved in public

Many don't. I mean, I like little kids a lot, but there are some parents out there that I'd like to strangle on occasion.

But a casual neighborhood cafe at brunch time or early evening?

Except as I read it, this particular cafe's target clientele is people who want to quietly sip their coffee while typing away on their laptops. It's not a family restaurant. All he's asking is that if a child does act up, that the parent not let the child run wild.

And I found this statement to be nonsense:

"I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

He's not asking that. He's only asking that the volume be controlled for the thirty minutes they're in his place of business. I don't think it's an unreasonable request. This is why my family's dining out experiences when I was a kid always involved places with names like "Sip n' Sup" or "Howard Johnson's."

[veejane.livejournal.com]

1) What is WITH the Times being all surface-coverage culture-war? I mean, if you're gonna do culture-war, be in-depth, fa chrissake, You are the Times! Give us continued reason not to think you're a steaming pile of morons!

2) My general sense is, one forgives a lot more out of someone who is trying than someone who isn't. A parent who is really working on (and failing at) controlling a toddler gets a lot more tolerance from the general public than a parent who is just not trying at all.

Still and all -- the nonverbal signals may be hard to find, on whether a place is kid-friendly or not. I would think a bakery would be hugely kid-friendly, what with the low displays of goodies and all. (Your average Starbucks, everything is designed for tall people.) And if you want to signal that you want an adult clientele, how to do that without coming across as pissy and judgemental?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I hate the attitude that, unless I want to get a babysitter, my family ought to limit ourselves to restaurants with plastic chairs and what my friend saoba calls "all-American brown and white food." Alex has been in a lot of restaurants, some of them with fancy white tablecloths. Usually she goes to sleep, although she might emit a squawk or two on the way down. As she gets older, we'll probably limit ourselves to ethnic restaurants for a while, which usually have higher levels of kid acceptance. But damn it, when she's five or six she'll have the right to go to a nice restaurant with good food, without being glared at.

I do think the article sets up an unfair dichotomy, as if the parental side of the argument must necessarily be that lying on the floor or bashing into things is an only-to-be-expected part of childhood. There are definitely some parents who don't make enough of an effort to corral their kids. But on the other hand, there are people who will glare at a baby in a restaurant just for having the temerity to exist, or will get all upset about toddler babbling that's below the decibel level of adult conversation. "We just want to have children behave themselves here" sounds reasonable, but how often does it mask an attitude that any noise or movement by a child is unacceptable?

My personal metric for restaurants' baby friendliness, incidentally, is whether anyone helps me get the stroller through the door. Yes, I know, it's not the responsibility of the restaurant staff to help me. But if the proprietor leaps forward to give me a hand, it's unfailingly a place where my family can eat comfortably. If they stand back, watching us struggle with cold dislike? The whole meal's going to be about keeping Alex from squeaking, so we might as well leave right away.

The most shocking part of the NYT article, to me, was that a feminist bookstore called Women and Children First (a) kicks children out of their story hour for standing up or talking, and (b) tried to stop a mother from nursing in the bookstore. If that qualifies as putting "women and children first," I'd hate to see what they do to the people they put last.

[sophiap.livejournal.com]

I am childless and plan to remain childless, but the attitude some people have towards children is appalling. It's as if all children are considered guilty of bad behavior until proven innocent, and even then, they're looked upon with suspicion.

One thing I like to do, if I'm seated near a child who is being especially personable, well-behaved, etc. is to compliment the child on his or her behavior. That's the way to encourage polite behavior in society. Rolling one's eyes and saying "we've got a screamer" isn't.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, I've passed the NYT link on to a few parents I know via email. They're pretty much agreeing that since they're children are well behaved (and they get compliments in restaurants to this effect), they wouldn't take offense at the posting of such signs.

The idea still rubs me the wrong way.