the culture wars...

[flea]

In addition to their ongoing anti-feminist articles about young women wanting to stay home with children, the New York Times also has had repeated articles about clashes between people with children and people without children. Today's instalment is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html?8hpib

My response is well-covered by Bitch, PhD in this essay (http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2005/04/moms-at-work-over-there.html) and can be summed up this way: children are part of society. Yes, parents should encourage them to be well-behaved in public, and should not take one-year-olds to Michelin 3-star restaurants. But a casual neighborhood cafe at brunch time or early evening? Give me a break.

Comments

[dxmachina.livejournal.com]

Yes, parents should encourage them to be well-behaved in public

Many don't. I mean, I like little kids a lot, but there are some parents out there that I'd like to strangle on occasion.

But a casual neighborhood cafe at brunch time or early evening?

Except as I read it, this particular cafe's target clientele is people who want to quietly sip their coffee while typing away on their laptops. It's not a family restaurant. All he's asking is that if a child does act up, that the parent not let the child run wild.

And I found this statement to be nonsense:

"I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

He's not asking that. He's only asking that the volume be controlled for the thirty minutes they're in his place of business. I don't think it's an unreasonable request. This is why my family's dining out experiences when I was a kid always involved places with names like "Sip n' Sup" or "Howard Johnson's."

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

And, given the owner's actions, he'll get his target clientele. If you look at the photo, though, it certainly looks homey: blue-and-white square flooring, curved wooden chairs. It's not decorated like a quiet place for people using laptops. It's decorated like a sunny rowdy family cafe. Maybe he needs to think about what message he signals by the decor and environment.

I certainly agree that children should not be allowed by their parents to behave like hooligans in public. Nor should adults behave like hooligans in public, though many do. And I think that actively segregating children out of society is a real problem. What if the cafe owner didn't want to serve people in wheelchairs because they blocked the aisles?

[dxmachina.livejournal.com]

Of course not, but then a person in a wheelchair is less likely to be accidently stepped on or knocked over. (Also, ADA has requirements for wheelchair accomodation.) I think if a person in a wheelchair was actively slamming it into his display counter, or yelling at the top of their lungs, the owner'd be within his rights to ask them to leave.

Also, he hasn't said that he won't serve children, or parents with children. He's just asking that the children try to behave while they're in his store.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Sure. But the example of the 4-month old starts fussing and an employee says, for the whole place to hear, "We've got a screamer"? That's pretty hostile. How can one ask a 4 month old to try to behave? Should people with 4 month olds never leave their homes? After how many seconds of crying should they be removed from public places?

(Also, I think if you asked people in wheelchairs, you'd find they are very likely to be accidentally stepped on, bumped, or run into.)

In my view, children have different abilities from adults. Their different abilities - in terms of self-control - mean we should grant them more leeway than we grant adults. I don't think we should grant them leeway to do whatever the hell they want to. But I think we should allow them to be children, and ask them to be well-behaved children given their ages and developmental ability to actually behave.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

In my view, children have different abilities from adults. Their different abilities - in terms of self-control - mean we should grant them more leeway than we grant adults.

Yes--this. It took me FOREVER to get over the feeling of mortification that I felt when Owen started fussing in public. But I think the unrealistic expectation of some childless people is that the kids should act like miniature adults. Which is ridiculous.

I certainly wouldn't fault the owner of the restaurant for asking parents to control their children. But perhaps pointing out specific behavior WHILE IT'S OCCURRING is more effective than painting all parents and children with the same wide brush. Insulting the parents of ALL children and making them feel unwelcome because of the normal behavior of their children is wrong.

Not all childlike behavior is disruptive to diners or staff and it shouldn't be held up as such.