religion and the family

[flea]

So, Casper has mentioned the Bible, and she points out Jesus in the big stained glass window of the church on our walk home (I said yes, Jesus was a wise teacher who lived a long time ago), and she asks me to sing a song I don't know about Jesus and children all over the world. (This song seems to be fairly mainstream - 2 of the 3 mainline-protestant raised friends who were present when I mentioned it broke into song together.) Clearly the nanny does some casual mention of religion, above and beyond the usual secularized Christmas/Easter.

I was raised in an atheist home until the age of 10, at which point my parents divorced and my mother mandated attendance at Episcopal church. I went on condition that I be allowed to sing in the choir (we had an excellent music director from Harvard) and under no circumstances go to Sunday School or Youth Group. This situation endured until I was 13 and we moved, at which point I became a Christmas-and-Easter Episcopalian. Since graduating high school I've been to various churches occasionally for the purposes of anthropology or attending other people's events. I do not believe in God. I feel that one's own religious beliefs and choices are very private, and I am uncomfortable with much discussion of religion in public arenas.

But I am a secular Christian - Christian religious holidays are observed by me in their secular incarnations, and I appreciate the traditions, music, and history of churches, with a particular prejeudice towards the Anglican/Episcopalian. I also have read the entire New Testament (for a class in high school) and have a decent grasp on the Old (due to a good child's Bible stories book and my study of Mediterranean ancient history) and have had occasion to be amused that I, the atheist in the room, may know the Bible better than the people who attend church or temple.

I like the idea of attending church for the sense of community activity, but can't even bring myself to join the local Unitarian Church because I feel that their spiritual community, though broad, is not so broad as to embrace my rejection of belief, plus they have cheesy "inclusive lyrics" music. The local Temple's preschool is high on the list for Casper for age 3, however - it's 2 blocks away, good, you don't have to be Jewish, and I like the idea of her being exposed to traditional Jewish holidays in an age-appropriate way.

Parents, especially fellow non- or low-believers, how have you/do you plan to educate your children about religion? Can anyone recommend children's books on religion that describe or illustrate traditions or stories and aren't really cheesy or proselytizing - i.e. that would pass my critical test both for artistic merit and squeamishness about overt religion? I like Madeline L'Engle's The Sphinix at Dawn, for example, but it's not simple enough for my toddler.

Comments

[richtermom.livejournal.com]

When we found out we were having Squeaky, I insisted we find a church because I think it's important. Not necessarily all of the indoctrination, but being part of a community that does good, whether it's social or educational or even peace-related or whatever. So we joined a methodist church, and Squeaky was baptised, and DH and I became sunday school teachers.

Then some spam about ATHIESTS CANCELLING TOUCHED BY AN ANGEL AND PROHIBITING JESUS ON THE TV came out and was forwarded by our church secretary. And I forwarded it -- as a joke -- to DH.

And he withdrew us from the church.

So. I don't know what we're going to do now. He doesn't want to work to find somewhere else, and I'm furious that he's being a jerk about this. And of course, he pulls all these new testament references to justify his position, and I'm like, HELLO, JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, THAT WAS HIS FATHER'S HOUSE. YOU ARE NOT THE SON OF GOD.

We're a little sacreligious sometimes.

OTOH, DH is reading the complete Chronicles of Narnia. We're up to the Magician's Nephew.

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

That spam is totally false, by the way. I just had to send my cousin an article from an internet rumor debunking website, to get her to quit sending it to people. Ugh.

[richtermom.livejournal.com]

uh, yeah. I responded pretty much immediately to the sender and everyone she sent it to with a link to a debug site and a list of how absurd it was, but when DH saw it (three weeks later because I'm such a priority in his life, hah) he also indicated just how many tenets of the Methodist faith it was contradicting. And, hey, he's right on paper, but that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to withdraw us from church.

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

Well yeah. It was the secretary forwarding it, yes? Was she doing it on behalf of the pastor, or was it just a personal thing?

[richtermom.livejournal.com]

It was a personal thing, but dh insists they don't do anything different for the Official Stuff From The Pastor.

Bleah.

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. That must be hard. Do you think he was looking for a reason to leave? Has the pastor or anyone apologized to him?

[richtermom.livejournal.com]

The Pastor gave sort of an apology, but dh is being all hardline about it. Again, on PAPER he's right, but that doesn't mean I agree with how he's handling it. This isn't the only facet of our lives he's pulling this on. Among a lot of people I know, I'm considered a pretty strident hardline radical type, but he makes me look like an apolitical passive coma patient.

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

>and she asks me to sing a song I don't know about Jesus and children all over the world.

If you want to know it to be able to sing it to her, it's probably this: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/j/e/jesloves.htm. This one has the words set to the music: http://susie1114.com/LittleChildren.html. Casper may well only mean/know the refrain.

I don't come from the perspective you're looking for, to help you with the rest. That said, you might browse a Barnes & Noble and see what they have in way of Bible Story Books, and/or other religious story books. I have an old Taylor's Bible Story Book. You'd need to review it (or similar) yourself, to see if it crosses your proselytizing line, but a Bible Story book might be a way to educate her on the stories of Judaism and Christianity, without getting heavy. I don't know what to suggest for other religions, though.

A Unitarian/Universalist Church should/would actually/probably be totally welcoming and accepting of an atheist, fwiw. If the musics and hymn lyrics were too cheesy, it would drive me far, far away though, so that's all I will say about that.

Do you have a United Church of Christ near you? Usually they have "Congregational" somewhere in their name (but not all Congregational Churches are UCC, and those that are not UCC are usually more religiously conservative). They're the 'God is Still Speaking' people, although not all congregations participate in that campaign (you'd be more likely to prefer one that did). What doctrine the 'God is Still Speaking' churches preach is going to be Christian, but many of them are very theologically liberal (more left than mainstream), and pastor-depending, you might be as likely to hear a Robert Frost poem as the gospel, as the focus of a sermon. Pastor and congregation depending, you could possibly come out as an atheist and still be most welcome and not proselytized at.

What's Mr. Flea's religious background--any?

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think that's the right song. I do know the tune, but can't think of what words I know to it. (Casper can't carry a tune for more than about 3 notes, so I only had snatches of lyrics to go on.)

mr. flea was raised and confirmed Catholic (but didn't go to Catholic school and really, compared to many ex-Catholics I know, was unaffected by the experience.) I think his current beliefs might be classed as liberal Christian plus - he's interested in some Buddhist and Taoist ideas. He'd be comfortable at the UU church. But he's too lazy to go.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

We have known and fled from the cheesiness of UU. I know they vary a lot, but whoa the cheese.

flea, if you want to UCC people to interview, I have two flatmates you can call up. They don't proselytize at me, and are very community-oriented, and I have no idea what their doctrine is, except "yay same-sex marriage", and "don't be harshing my mellow".

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

The thing to keep in mind about UCC churches though, is they aren't homogenous. Generally, that's a good thing. But they are truly congregational in government, so V's roomie's experience may or may not have anything in common with the churches you'll find near your house. Some are ultra liberal (with one conference minister gleefully describing the area meetings to me as "bootcamp for radicals"); some are quite liberal; some are moderate; some are even conservative in comparison the the UCC as a whole, although still probably to the left of the Protestant mainstream both doctrinally and politically.

The more liberal ones will be just as glad to have you as an open atheist. The UCC is not big on proselytizing in general. I don't know what you'll run into, in your area, though.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

I'm sure they'd be glad to have me, but I don't think I'd be comfortable with them. I have a great coworker who is a pillar of the local UCC, but I went to their web site, and I just can't imagine feeling comfortable at a place where the "Welcome" page begins "We affirm Jesus Christ...". I'm just not a churchgoer.

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

>> "We affirm Jesus Christ...".

That's the denomination, though. That's what I'm talking about it being congregation-dependent. My church is actually UCC, but it's not. That is, we are Christ affirming, and monotheistic, etc. Our church is thinking of either leaving the UCC or dually affiliating with a more theologically conservative denomination (with an eye toward leaving eventually, when the last handful of UCC loyalists are gone), because much of the denomination's lip-service to Christ, Christianity, and the Bible is just that. My cousin has gone to a pagan solstice celebration with a UCC group. Another acquaintance (not from my church) who has told his pastor he is essentially a pantheist and has moved past religious faith in Christ, is invited by same to take leadership positions.

[susano.livejournal.com]

I am pretty much an agnostic/athiest (raised Catholic), but I keep thinking that if I ever have kids I may raise them in the Catholic Church anyway. It will give them something to rebel against.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

My 21 year old half brother, son of my devoutly atheist father, joined the Methodist church at 16 and is now a youth pastor, much to my hee. Kids find a way.

[susano.livejournal.com]

That's what I fear!

[orthoepy.livejournal.com]

That was my argument for sending LB to Catholic School. DH didn't buy it. :-)

[susano.livejournal.com]

I think it's a great idea!

However, my mother is in her 70's and is still afraid of nuns, so she might not agree.

[(Anonymous)]

I think my extended argument was "hey, when you're spending all your time trying to subvert the dress code and get out of altar boy duty, it leaves no time for *actual* trouble!" But DH has this little thing he calls "a committment to public education". Luckily LB got into the really, really GOOD public school.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

(This song seems to be fairly mainstream - 2 of the 3 mainline-protestant raised friends who were present when I mentioned it broke into song together.)

Was it "Jesus loves me, this I know, 'cause my Skippy tells me so..."?

I knew the commercial for peanut butter way before I knew it was a religious song, and now they are stuck together in my brain, like peanut butter in unfortunate places.

private

I was just discussing this with somebody the other week, about how in our corner of the country, religion is a private thing, and mentioning it casually in conversation, as some local celebrities do, is as rude and weird as if they were describing their underpants.

I have no advice regarding good Biblical stories that aren't anvilicious, especially not for that young an age. And, personally, I would find it unbelieveably creepy if my nanny were indoctrinating my kid without, like, checking with me first.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

I think the nanny is unaware that she's doing it - she doesn't even realize that people might be uncomfortable with these minor religious mentions. Note that 2 of the 5 families who have at any time been involved in the nanny-share are Jewish! Eli's parents were a little uncomfortable with the Christmas carols playing, and asked that the nanny restrict them to secular carols. She was kind of surprised, and was worried about whether she should get him a Christmas present. She's well meaning and completely doesn't get it.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

Did they spell out J E W I S H in really big letters?

I thought you lived in a college town, hon. Can you enroll her in a comparative religions class?

[loligo.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of attending church for the sense of community activity, but can't even bring myself to join the local Unitarian Church because I feel that their spiritual community, though broad, is not so broad as to embrace my rejection of belief

My husband (incorruptibles) has posted about the exact same problem recently. He definitely envies me my capacity for non-literal belief -- I attend the ultra-progressive UCC church across the street, where no one seems to mind my "God is an interesting theory" frame of mind. I don't have problems hanging out with other socially & politically liberal people who *do* believe in God firmly and literally, but he just can't make that leap. The basic New Testament message really resonates with me, and I love a lot of traditional Christian symbolism, so that's why I stick with it, even though I'm quite agnostic at heart.

We didn't get Chuckles baptized, though -- no way am I promising to raise her as a Christian. That's a decision that people need to make for themselves. Once she gets old enough, I'll probably take her to Sunday school and such, but with lots of "Christianity is just one way to think about things" messages when we're at home.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

I went back and found the post, and yes, I am your husband, except for the Buddhism.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you brought this up. We obviously haven't had to deal with the subject yet but I know it's going to come up at some point--since my husband's parents are newly interested in attending their Lutheran church (and my MiL works for a Baptist church as well).

Christopher and I are both agnostic leaning towards atheists. We haven't really felt the need to seek community/social contacts through a church. Although a Unitarian church might work for those purposes.

We're lucky because our neighborhood is heavily Jewish and our school system (K-12) observes all major Jewish holidays and holy days so Owen will be exposed to different religions officially.

I'm now going to start looking for age-appropriate books that explain religion without espousing it because I think they're a good idea.

I want my child to be educated so that when the time comes, he (and she that's coming) can be prepared to make their own decision regarding their faith and spiritual life.

[hecubot.livejournal.com]

Emmett attended the local Jewish Community Center for aftercare from grades 1 through halfway through 3 and was pretty convinced that he was Jewish. (Technically true, since it's matrlineal and goes back a couple generations - though both his mother and grandmother were not practicing Jews and his mother certainly doesn't identify as such.)

I don't have much of a plan for educating Emmett about religion, though obviously his options in the Bay Area are quite diverse. I would like to take him to Glide Memorial in the City (a very famous, very liberal, very Black, very socially progressive church - all the Baptist singing with none of the judgment and guilt), or the Church of John Coltrane (an actual church here, with jazz as the service). My own spiritual needs and questions get dealt with outside of a church or community, and in honesty I'm not sure if quoting Kierkegaard to him is going to mean much before he's in his 20s.

It's a source of some pain to my father that Emmett wasn't baptized, however.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this just highlights the need for philosophical education for little children. Kierkegaard for Kidz!

I'm pretty sure DH's grandpa "baptized" LB when we weren't looking (on his own, not hauling him off to the church, as Catholics can do). But that's okay, it made him feel better. (Grandpa, not LB, who was small enough not to have any idea.)

[rivka.livejournal.com]

We're going to raise Alex Unitarian-Universalist. (That reminds me, I need to schedule her child dedication.) There really is some good stuff in the hymnal, honest! It's not all Teh Goofy.

Religious education (RE) programs in a UU church usually do a great job of introducing kids to multiple faiths. This year, the theme for our church's RE program is "Holidays and Holy Days" - each class, from preschoolers on up to the youth group, will be learning about religious holidays around the world (at varying levels of sophistication, obviously). Even if you don't want to attend UU services, it might not be the worst idea to sent Casper to RE there.

(And really, your local UU church isn't welcoming of atheists? Around here, there's a perennial debate about whether the church is too welcoming of theists.)

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sure ERUUF (the local) welcomes atheists. They probably even welcome republicans! The unwelcomeness is all in me - it's my awkward feeling, nothing they do.