gaaah

[flea]

To soften you up before the rant: I painted my toenails red today, and then I painted Casper's red too, because she wanted me to. They are So. Cute.

The Rant: We seem to have the options of half-hour nursing sessions 1-2 times a night, or 30-60 minute crying sessions, with multiple brief visits every 10-15 minutes to say "it's time to sleep," and the phrase, "I. Want. Mom. Mee." whined, cried, shrieked, etc. approximately 147,000 times. I am so ANGRY about this right now. I spend an hour awake listening to her cry, then an hour awake surfing to cool down my anger so I can actually sleep, then I get up in the morning and resent her all day Like a cat who goes straight to the one person in the room who hates or is allergic to cats, Casper chooses these days to be particularly clingy wth me.

I'm thinking we need to try something completely new, but I'm not sure what it is. Have her sleep on a pillow on the floor in our bedroom? Give her to the wolverines?

Comments

[theodosia.livejournal.com]

White-noise headphones for Mom?

The wolverines must seem like an attractive option.

[loligo.livejournal.com]

Elizabeth Pantley, The No-Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers & Pre-Schoolers. This book was really helpful for us, and there's a whole chapter just on nighttime nursing. The first suggestion from that chapter: let your kid nurse for just a little while, enough to calm down but not enough to fall completely asleep, to start breaking the nursing/sleep association.

My kid slept for ten hours last night! Except for falling out of bed at three, but then she fell right back asleep. Maybe the curse is finally broken....

Tough Approach

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry. I understand your anger. I wish I could restore your sleep. It's hard to cope with anything without a full night's sleep. {{hugs}}} If you do want a new option, read on. If this rant was just to vent, ignore.

I'm thinking we need to try something completely new, but I'm not sure what it is. Have her sleep on a pillow on the floor in our bedroom?

My s-i-l chose the pillow-on-floor route, and is having problems getting her 13 year old girl out of the room. She pounds on her parents locked door in the night. Her 9 year old is a good sleeper because the parents were so busy dealing with the eldest. S-i-l just said her 5 year old son sleeps in her room. I wanted to clock her, because I've been listening to her complain about her oldest for the past 9 years.

Based on what I've seen with family and friends, I recommend, if you can find do it (and mr. flea), consider the hard-ass route.

Wait 'til the weekend, but prime her this week. Frame the idea as part of what big 2 year old kids do. Friday, a good while before bed, Daddy, you and Casper call a family meeting. She'll think that's interesting. Explain that means the family has a problem and will work together to solve it.

Explain, calmly and cheerfully, that Mommy and Daddy need uninterrupted sleep so that they can be healthy and lots of fun, that only little babies (said slightly disparaging) nurse at night, and only because their bellies are too small to hold a night's worth of milk. Tell her the dr. says great big 2 year olds don't nurse at night. State your expectation is that she will sleep through, if she wakes, she will work to get herself back to sleep, and that as a member of the family, she must help with family problems when her help is needed.

Now, this isn't going to do it. It's the set-up. She understands far more than she can articulate, so it will give you something to reference, when she does wake.

<tough love&ght;
When she wakes, let it go for as long as you can. Then Daddy-only, goes in, and says, "Casper, remember our family meeting? Nighttime is for sleeping. Mommy and I need to sleep to be healthy, and lots of fun." When she protests, he can say, "I don't want to hear it. Go to sleep, or lie there quietly, but Mommy and I are sleeping. We'll see you in the morning."

Then, he has to walk away. Don't sleep in her room. Don't remain with her until she settles down. Discussion should be short, and firm in tones. In the day, the topic can be revisited cheerfully. At night, be all business. Any comfort she receives is taken as a reward for acting up.

Try not to go back after the 1st time, because it's the only way she'll take it seriously. If I went back (and since she wants Mommy, Daddy should go & make like you're sleeping) I'd keep my remarks to, "Stop it. We've made our decision at the family meeting. Quiet down," and then I'd walk away, again.

It may take a week or 2 of hell, but the sooner you prove you're serious, (this means no giving in this 1 time), the sooner it will sink in.

One of the more valuable pieces of parenting advice I've gotten over the years is about whining. I was told that when a parent first says, "No," but then gives in after X minutes of protest, all s/he's done is teach the to protest for X minutes.

I know this sounds (and feels) mean. It is. But now, she's being set up to develop some long-term sleep problems, which is also mean. If there's no physical need for her to be fed in the middle of the night, then she needs to get over it. She will benefit from learning to console herself over non-serious upsets (IOW, if she's not sick, hurt, or hasn't had a scary dream, etc.). </tough love&ght;

Be extra lovey in the day. If she still naps, set naps as early as you can, and limit--maybe even wake her after a 1/2 hour, so she's sleepier at night.

Give her a big carb and milk snack before bed. Reward her the first few times she is reasonably successful.

Soft Approach

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

An alternative (and the only one I can see) is to let her continue to wake and nurse, and wait for the day she outgrows it.

I also think that is do-able for some families; it's a different way to work family sleep schedules. It doesn't sound like something you can deal with--long term though, and I think the middle ground approaches tend to be a lot of work and are seen by children as permanent, even when temporary.

Either way, I think you might benefit from deciding on one course, and ignoring middle ground--either put your foot down, or acquiesce. Anything else seems confusing to me, particularly if it's not going to be something you can deal with in the long run, and is only a stop-gap.

Whatever you settle on, I'm sure she will, eventually, outgrow her desire to nurse at night, but given what I've seen with my s-i-l's kids, and one other nephew who was allowed to sleep with his parents, and some friends' kids, and some cousins' kids, she may not get over the desire to sleep in your room, or have middle-of-the-night company, if you keep giving into that demand. If that's not something you can deal with long term, then I really do recommend the hard-ass approach, as horrible as it sounds.

I wish you success and peace with whatever approach you develop. You must be so tired.

Re: Tough Approach

[loligo.livejournal.com]

It may take a week or 2 of hell

The thing is, for some kids it's more like 6-8 weeks of hell with this approach, plus they are absolutely panicked and miserable during the day and cling to Mom (or Dad) like a leech. It all depends on their personality.

That's why, even though I *did* recommend a sleep book earlier in the thread, I've never found a parenting book that I really, whole-heartedly love -- none of them seem to fully recognize that KIDS ARE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER. The hard-ass books are all "Your kids'll get over it right away," -- well, some kids don't. And the soft-touch books are all "Your children will be traumatized forever if you do this!" and guess what -- some kids won't be! For some kids the hard-ass shortcut works great! It's really too bad that child-rearing gets turned into this big ideological *thing*, and that more "experts" don't approach it with more creativity. Everyone in the family has needs, and sometimes it takes some tinkering and some thinking outside the box to find ways to meet everyone's needs with as little pain as possible.

Re: Tough Approach

[cindywrites.livejournal.com]

This is also why I offered a soft approach in a separate response. These are suggestions, not prescriptions. They're not from a book, they're from parenting 3 children (ages 9, 6, and 5) and from being an aunt to 20 children, and they're not guaranteed. They're also worth exactly the paper they're written on.

Kids are different, which is why I didn't say "DO this for X minutes." Only flea and Mr. flea know how long is too long for Casper to be crying, and only they (and she) know the difference between her panic, and her anger at not getting her own way.

Kids are also the same, too. They learn what to expect, because we teach them what to expect, with our actions. If some nights, you let them cry, and don't nurse, and sometimes you nurse, they don't have any reason to expect any set behavior.

Re: Tough Approach

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Just to set our particular situation a little more clearly, with Casper some of the Pantley (we read her first sleep book) stuff was really helpful when we started trying to get her to sleep more, at about 7 months. We have a good bedtime routine and have had it consistently since then, although as she has gotten older, and partly because of summer late sunsets, her bedtime has crept later. (How I long for the 7:30 bedtime of last March!) Going to bed is not usually a big struggle.

Our problem has always been night waking. However, 2-3 months ago we had successfully night-weaned her and at the same time got her sleeping 8:30pm-5 or 6am maybe 4 nights out of 7. She'd be up early morning, nurse, and then sleep until 7:30ish. Nights she woke in the night mr. flea would stick his head in her door and quiet her, and she'd settle. We originally did this with some modified Ferber - we've never found anything more gentle to have any effect on her at all, and believe me, we tried all of the relevant tricks Pantley suggested. It took about 3 (very hard) nights. I don't remember what threw us off this glorious schedule, maybe just one or two zonked and thus thoughtless accidental 1 am nursings, but I know it was already gone by the time we went on vacation (sure-fire schedule-freller). So we've been trying to re-establish it, and we have successfully night-weaned, but she's not willing to settle herself in the night right now. She's angry with us, and trying to get her way, and I have a philosophical problem about it all because I do want to find a middle way. I can't be a parent who says, "She's got to do it the way we say because we're the parents," and I simultaneously believe that children need limits set and consistency - but I can't always live up to my own ideals in the latter area. It's also tied in to a new phase in Casper's development generally, of typical increasing independence and wilfulness, that we're still only beginning to feel our way to understanding how to deal with.

Cindy, I appreciate your advice above, but it did read sort of like you were talking to someone who had never thought about sleep issues, and I know you know I have. If there's one thing I've found I believe about parenting it's that what is most effective for me is to hear, "This is what my kid is/was like, and here is what worked for me." I don't believe that parenting data exists, and so what I really want to hear is (preferably sympathetic) anecdote. But I've found Pantley to be a creative, inclusive strategizer, so I think I'll have a look at her toddler book - thanks, loligo, I didn't realize she had one specifically for toddlers.

Re: Tough Approach

[loligo.livejournal.com]

Kids are different, which is why I didn't say "DO this for X minutes."

Yeah, I wasn't meaning for that to come across so much as a critque of your advice as a general rant of frustration with the whole topic. My 3 year-old, "Chuckles", is the first baby in either side of our extended family for like, decades, and she's got the high-strung temperment of some of my siblings with the insomnia of my husband's family. So all we've got to work with are two grandmas who say, "Well, *you* never did that..." and a bunch of books that say "All kids do X" -- and ours invariably doesn't!

So for casperflea, here's our latest bizarre sleep anecdote: the brand new magic bullet of sleep for Chuckles is... a magnetic erase board. You know, those things like an Etchasketch, but you draw on them with a stylus? Someone got her a little travel one for her birthday, and it has knocked her out at least eight times in the past two weeks. I seriously doubt this will ever be useful advice for anyone else, but for her, her biggest problem has *always* been winding down enough to fall asleep, and for whatever reason, drawing circles on that darn board is more soporific than anything since the baby swing.

Re: Tough Approach

[ste-noni.livejournal.com]

This is my third try at this post...

Essentially, what I was trying to say before is that a) I'm so sorry that you haven't been sleeping and that your whole family has had such a difficult time at night and b) I worry that some day soon Ellie and I will be in the same situation.