the culture wars...

[flea]

In addition to their ongoing anti-feminist articles about young women wanting to stay home with children, the New York Times also has had repeated articles about clashes between people with children and people without children. Today's instalment is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html?8hpib

My response is well-covered by Bitch, PhD in this essay (http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2005/04/moms-at-work-over-there.html) and can be summed up this way: children are part of society. Yes, parents should encourage them to be well-behaved in public, and should not take one-year-olds to Michelin 3-star restaurants. But a casual neighborhood cafe at brunch time or early evening? Give me a break.

Comments

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

I LOVE the response!!!! AMEN!

[dxmachina.livejournal.com]

Yes, parents should encourage them to be well-behaved in public

Many don't. I mean, I like little kids a lot, but there are some parents out there that I'd like to strangle on occasion.

But a casual neighborhood cafe at brunch time or early evening?

Except as I read it, this particular cafe's target clientele is people who want to quietly sip their coffee while typing away on their laptops. It's not a family restaurant. All he's asking is that if a child does act up, that the parent not let the child run wild.

And I found this statement to be nonsense:

"I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

He's not asking that. He's only asking that the volume be controlled for the thirty minutes they're in his place of business. I don't think it's an unreasonable request. This is why my family's dining out experiences when I was a kid always involved places with names like "Sip n' Sup" or "Howard Johnson's."

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

And, given the owner's actions, he'll get his target clientele. If you look at the photo, though, it certainly looks homey: blue-and-white square flooring, curved wooden chairs. It's not decorated like a quiet place for people using laptops. It's decorated like a sunny rowdy family cafe. Maybe he needs to think about what message he signals by the decor and environment.

I certainly agree that children should not be allowed by their parents to behave like hooligans in public. Nor should adults behave like hooligans in public, though many do. And I think that actively segregating children out of society is a real problem. What if the cafe owner didn't want to serve people in wheelchairs because they blocked the aisles?

[dxmachina.livejournal.com]

Of course not, but then a person in a wheelchair is less likely to be accidently stepped on or knocked over. (Also, ADA has requirements for wheelchair accomodation.) I think if a person in a wheelchair was actively slamming it into his display counter, or yelling at the top of their lungs, the owner'd be within his rights to ask them to leave.

Also, he hasn't said that he won't serve children, or parents with children. He's just asking that the children try to behave while they're in his store.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Sure. But the example of the 4-month old starts fussing and an employee says, for the whole place to hear, "We've got a screamer"? That's pretty hostile. How can one ask a 4 month old to try to behave? Should people with 4 month olds never leave their homes? After how many seconds of crying should they be removed from public places?

(Also, I think if you asked people in wheelchairs, you'd find they are very likely to be accidentally stepped on, bumped, or run into.)

In my view, children have different abilities from adults. Their different abilities - in terms of self-control - mean we should grant them more leeway than we grant adults. I don't think we should grant them leeway to do whatever the hell they want to. But I think we should allow them to be children, and ask them to be well-behaved children given their ages and developmental ability to actually behave.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

In my view, children have different abilities from adults. Their different abilities - in terms of self-control - mean we should grant them more leeway than we grant adults.

Yes--this. It took me FOREVER to get over the feeling of mortification that I felt when Owen started fussing in public. But I think the unrealistic expectation of some childless people is that the kids should act like miniature adults. Which is ridiculous.

I certainly wouldn't fault the owner of the restaurant for asking parents to control their children. But perhaps pointing out specific behavior WHILE IT'S OCCURRING is more effective than painting all parents and children with the same wide brush. Insulting the parents of ALL children and making them feel unwelcome because of the normal behavior of their children is wrong.

Not all childlike behavior is disruptive to diners or staff and it shouldn't be held up as such.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

1) What is WITH the Times being all surface-coverage culture-war? I mean, if you're gonna do culture-war, be in-depth, fa chrissake, You are the Times! Give us continued reason not to think you're a steaming pile of morons!

2) My general sense is, one forgives a lot more out of someone who is trying than someone who isn't. A parent who is really working on (and failing at) controlling a toddler gets a lot more tolerance from the general public than a parent who is just not trying at all.

Still and all -- the nonverbal signals may be hard to find, on whether a place is kid-friendly or not. I would think a bakery would be hugely kid-friendly, what with the low displays of goodies and all. (Your average Starbucks, everything is designed for tall people.) And if you want to signal that you want an adult clientele, how to do that without coming across as pissy and judgemental?

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Decor, lighting, prices, the type of food you provide. I stopped taking my daughter to the great Thai Food place when she got to the toddler stage, because it's dimly lit, the waiters are formally dressed, the carpet and upholstery is dark and elegant. It's not particlarly expensive (and they do have take-out) but it's signaling, "This is not a place to bring a kid who can't be relied on to stay in a chair." Elmo's, on the other hand, has wood floors, bright sun, vinyl booths, a kid's menu, and crayons, so it's saying, "As long as your child will not bite the server, come on in." It still has good food, isn't a chain kiddie restaurant. And you know what? I rarely see outrageous child behavior there.

[veejane.livejournal.com]

Elmo's!!

I thought the crayons were for the grownups.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY. Christopher and I took Owen to one of our favorite tiny Italian bistros. It's casual and I see kids in there all the time. But when Owen wasn't being really cooperative after we had ordered and I saw a nicely dressed couple sit next to us and order $9 glasses of whiskey, I figured they might not want their fairly expensive dinner disrupted and we asked the waitress to box our entrees to go.

Owen wasn't screaming or crying, but I could tell by his fidgets that he wouldn't last through dinner. I made a judgement call and we left. I try to pick up on these cues early before there is a problem and be considerate of other customers.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I hate the attitude that, unless I want to get a babysitter, my family ought to limit ourselves to restaurants with plastic chairs and what my friend saoba calls "all-American brown and white food." Alex has been in a lot of restaurants, some of them with fancy white tablecloths. Usually she goes to sleep, although she might emit a squawk or two on the way down. As she gets older, we'll probably limit ourselves to ethnic restaurants for a while, which usually have higher levels of kid acceptance. But damn it, when she's five or six she'll have the right to go to a nice restaurant with good food, without being glared at.

I do think the article sets up an unfair dichotomy, as if the parental side of the argument must necessarily be that lying on the floor or bashing into things is an only-to-be-expected part of childhood. There are definitely some parents who don't make enough of an effort to corral their kids. But on the other hand, there are people who will glare at a baby in a restaurant just for having the temerity to exist, or will get all upset about toddler babbling that's below the decibel level of adult conversation. "We just want to have children behave themselves here" sounds reasonable, but how often does it mask an attitude that any noise or movement by a child is unacceptable?

My personal metric for restaurants' baby friendliness, incidentally, is whether anyone helps me get the stroller through the door. Yes, I know, it's not the responsibility of the restaurant staff to help me. But if the proprietor leaps forward to give me a hand, it's unfailingly a place where my family can eat comfortably. If they stand back, watching us struggle with cold dislike? The whole meal's going to be about keeping Alex from squeaking, so we might as well leave right away.

The most shocking part of the NYT article, to me, was that a feminist bookstore called Women and Children First (a) kicks children out of their story hour for standing up or talking, and (b) tried to stop a mother from nursing in the bookstore. If that qualifies as putting "women and children first," I'd hate to see what they do to the people they put last.

[casperflea.livejournal.com]

Yes, the anti-feminist feminist bookstore was a little mind-boggling.

How I miss the halcyon days when Casper could be counted on to sleep or sit happily mouthing a spoon for a 45-minute meal! But we do go fetch her immediately every time she slips out of her chair, and our rule is, twice out of the chair means it's time to sit on someone's lap for a while.

And on the glare side, yes - I got glared at in an art museum, outside the cafe which was hosting a 4th birthday party, as my quiet baby crawled along their clean, carpeted floor. The elderly woman said to her husband, "People take babies anywhere these days!" And if they're not disturbing you except by simply existing, why not?

[rivka.livejournal.com]

I find that the same people who object to children being anyplace that isn't specifically kid-oriented also sneer at parents for "not having anything interesting to talk about anymore."

[sophiap.livejournal.com]

I am childless and plan to remain childless, but the attitude some people have towards children is appalling. It's as if all children are considered guilty of bad behavior until proven innocent, and even then, they're looked upon with suspicion.

One thing I like to do, if I'm seated near a child who is being especially personable, well-behaved, etc. is to compliment the child on his or her behavior. That's the way to encourage polite behavior in society. Rolling one's eyes and saying "we've got a screamer" isn't.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, I've passed the NYT link on to a few parents I know via email. They're pretty much agreeing that since they're children are well behaved (and they get compliments in restaurants to this effect), they wouldn't take offense at the posting of such signs.

The idea still rubs me the wrong way.

[cashmerepett.livejournal.com]

oops. that should be "their children" not "they're children".